This was a follow up post from this one in a Calvin-in-Common discussion.
Tonight l lead a small group discussion on the end of Colossians 1. As I was going through I thought of this conversation. The debate as to “whether only Christians go to heaven” seems like such thin soup compared to the claims in this chapter and the other passages of Paul that we touched on as we tried to get a handle on what Paul is saying about suffering. We touched on Romans 5, Romans 8, 2 Corinthians 4. This gospel that Paul writes about is a narrative of suffering, death and resurrection. What’s so amazing is that this is located first in this one man Jesus of Nazareth, and in his wake through this path he pulls the cosmos through it with him. Paul sees his own work in participation with this and therefore rejoices in his sufferings understanding them to be a part of this cosmic process that will culminate in the end of the decay that currently grips the creation (Romans 8). This gospel speaks of the renewal of all things that has already begun in this Jesus walking out of the tomb in the flesh of creation 2.0.
When you want to say “all religions get you there” the best first question to ask is “get you where?” Can all religions give you a sense of inner peace? I would imagine many offer this, as does a good therapist. Do all religious offer prescriptions by which to secure for oneself a successful and pleasant afterlife? A couple of months ago I visited the King Tut exhibit in San Francisco. I was impressed at how well the wealthy and powerful of Egypt outfitted themselves for both the joys and perils of the afterlife. Those who are serious about karma (a level above “My Name is Earl” and the many Californians who are just trying to get a leg up on things by being generous in order to get good things in return) try to work the system so that good things come to them in their next incarnation. To me the only way you can really say “all religions are the same” is if you establish what religion is supposed to do, as opposed to listening to what the religions themselves are claiming to be able to accomplish and then stay clear of the details.
How are we to treat others who have different belief systems? To me that isn’t a mysterious question at all. How do you treat those who don’t believe in global warming? Do you mock them, denigrate them, feel superior to them, call them ignorant or uneducated because their accounting for the evidence you present doesn’t move them to join you in your conclusion of it? You might say that “but it’s science and we’ve got all the evidence we need to show that our telling of reality is the case!” Are you measuring global ocean temperatures or are you believing the accounts passed on to you by others? Do you stand on the shoulders of a large numbers of communities studying Greenland glacier core samples, tree rings, geologists, biologist and people from many nations all themselves working upon communities of sciences and traditions of philosophy coming together debating what all that they are learning could mean for the future passed on to you through accounts in the media and stories from friends.
It is fair to say that what religions deal with is of a magnitude larger than even the question of human responsibility for global climate change AND human capacity to control global climate change and I would agree. But the stakes that religion deals with is also higher. We begin to speak of the salvation from the death and forgetfulness that consumes all the world as we experience it today, predicted to one day be eclipsed and ended by extinction of the sun upon which we all depend and even of value itself. The question “does anything at all matter” is only answered by religion.
If you like the Yankees and your mother likes the Red Socks how can you get along with her? It’s because you calibrate the importance of that aspect of your life, activity and your relationship with her. If you find it easy to get along with people of other religions but you can’t get along with people who have different politics than you it may be saying something about what sphere of life you imagine ultimate value to be in. A lot of what passes for religious tolerance is really just not taking religion seriously just like not taking baseball allegiances seriously.
If you really believe the automobile is bringing about the end of civilization as we know it then it is reasonable to be a zealous hater of those who drive private automobiles. This little clip of Penn Jillette (who if you know anything about him you know he is NOT a Christian) makes a similar comment. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owZc3Xq8obk
I believe, contrary to much of Christian history, contrary to how most of us practice our Christian religion that Christianity offers a better answer to the question “how should we treat the destroyers of the world.” What other religion both has at its center the story of a man who laid down his life on behalf of the future welfare for the violators of planet earth AND who in that central act of sacrifice accomplishes in his flesh the renewal of all things as announced in the account of his resurrection? The reason we don’t love our enemies, whether they be political, religious, violent or merely annoying is that we simply do not believe the story and so we take it upon ourselves to become saviors of the earth which in our narrow perspective demands the alienation, subjugation and oppression of those who see things differently from ourselves.
If you ask me “will we all be saved from ourselves?” I don’t think the Bible is optimistic on that idea. We are a stubborn race and we know full well that we sometimes just want things out own way and are willing to irrationally pay an enormous price to seek it. CS Lewis postulates that hell is ultimately God giving people exactly what they say they want. A Biblical picture of sin is insanity, blindness, senseless rebellion for its own sake, a love of destruction because if we can’t have it we don’t want anyone else to have it either. We’ve all experienced this in ourselves and seen it full blown in others. When confronted by it in others if we’re clear on what we can and cannot really do we often quickly realize how powerless we are when we face this kind of evil. What does God do with evil? What can God do with evil? Christianity asserts that evil will one day be fully resolved. I wrote more on hell here: http://leadingchurch.com/wordpress/?p=66
About PaulVK
Husband, Father of 5, Pastor
How dare we love the human destoyers of the world?
This was a follow up post from this one in a Calvin-in-Common discussion.
Tonight l lead a small group discussion on the end of Colossians 1. As I was going through I thought of this conversation. The debate as to “whether only Christians go to heaven” seems like such thin soup compared to the claims in this chapter and the other passages of Paul that we touched on as we tried to get a handle on what Paul is saying about suffering. We touched on Romans 5, Romans 8, 2 Corinthians 4. This gospel that Paul writes about is a narrative of suffering, death and resurrection. What’s so amazing is that this is located first in this one man Jesus of Nazareth, and in his wake through this path he pulls the cosmos through it with him. Paul sees his own work in participation with this and therefore rejoices in his sufferings understanding them to be a part of this cosmic process that will culminate in the end of the decay that currently grips the creation (Romans 8). This gospel speaks of the renewal of all things that has already begun in this Jesus walking out of the tomb in the flesh of creation 2.0.
When you want to say “all religions get you there” the best first question to ask is “get you where?” Can all religions give you a sense of inner peace? I would imagine many offer this, as does a good therapist. Do all religious offer prescriptions by which to secure for oneself a successful and pleasant afterlife? A couple of months ago I visited the King Tut exhibit in San Francisco. I was impressed at how well the wealthy and powerful of Egypt outfitted themselves for both the joys and perils of the afterlife. Those who are serious about karma (a level above “My Name is Earl” and the many Californians who are just trying to get a leg up on things by being generous in order to get good things in return) try to work the system so that good things come to them in their next incarnation. To me the only way you can really say “all religions are the same” is if you establish what religion is supposed to do, as opposed to listening to what the religions themselves are claiming to be able to accomplish and then stay clear of the details.
How are we to treat others who have different belief systems? To me that isn’t a mysterious question at all. How do you treat those who don’t believe in global warming? Do you mock them, denigrate them, feel superior to them, call them ignorant or uneducated because their accounting for the evidence you present doesn’t move them to join you in your conclusion of it? You might say that “but it’s science and we’ve got all the evidence we need to show that our telling of reality is the case!” Are you measuring global ocean temperatures or are you believing the accounts passed on to you by others? Do you stand on the shoulders of a large numbers of communities studying Greenland glacier core samples, tree rings, geologists, biologist and people from many nations all themselves working upon communities of sciences and traditions of philosophy coming together debating what all that they are learning could mean for the future passed on to you through accounts in the media and stories from friends.
It is fair to say that what religions deal with is of a magnitude larger than even the question of human responsibility for global climate change AND human capacity to control global climate change and I would agree. But the stakes that religion deals with is also higher. We begin to speak of the salvation from the death and forgetfulness that consumes all the world as we experience it today, predicted to one day be eclipsed and ended by extinction of the sun upon which we all depend and even of value itself. The question “does anything at all matter” is only answered by religion.
If you like the Yankees and your mother likes the Red Socks how can you get along with her? It’s because you calibrate the importance of that aspect of your life, activity and your relationship with her. If you find it easy to get along with people of other religions but you can’t get along with people who have different politics than you it may be saying something about what sphere of life you imagine ultimate value to be in. A lot of what passes for religious tolerance is really just not taking religion seriously just like not taking baseball allegiances seriously.
If you really believe the automobile is bringing about the end of civilization as we know it then it is reasonable to be a zealous hater of those who drive private automobiles. This little clip of Penn Jillette (who if you know anything about him you know he is NOT a Christian) makes a similar comment. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owZc3Xq8obk
I believe, contrary to much of Christian history, contrary to how most of us practice our Christian religion that Christianity offers a better answer to the question “how should we treat the destroyers of the world.” What other religion both has at its center the story of a man who laid down his life on behalf of the future welfare for the violators of planet earth AND who in that central act of sacrifice accomplishes in his flesh the renewal of all things as announced in the account of his resurrection? The reason we don’t love our enemies, whether they be political, religious, violent or merely annoying is that we simply do not believe the story and so we take it upon ourselves to become saviors of the earth which in our narrow perspective demands the alienation, subjugation and oppression of those who see things differently from ourselves.
If you ask me “will we all be saved from ourselves?” I don’t think the Bible is optimistic on that idea. We are a stubborn race and we know full well that we sometimes just want things out own way and are willing to irrationally pay an enormous price to seek it. CS Lewis postulates that hell is ultimately God giving people exactly what they say they want. A Biblical picture of sin is insanity, blindness, senseless rebellion for its own sake, a love of destruction because if we can’t have it we don’t want anyone else to have it either. We’ve all experienced this in ourselves and seen it full blown in others. When confronted by it in others if we’re clear on what we can and cannot really do we often quickly realize how powerless we are when we face this kind of evil. What does God do with evil? What can God do with evil? Christianity asserts that evil will one day be fully resolved. I wrote more on hell here: http://leadingchurch.com/wordpress/?p=66
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About PaulVK
Husband, Father of 5, Pastor